Weekend open thread

Carrie Prejean is not as pure as she would like you to think.

Abortion may impact mental health: study

From www.watoday.com.au November 3, 2009

New Zealand researchers who examined the medical history of more than 500 women have concluded abortion "leads to significant distress in some".

Women reporting adverse reactions were up to 80 per cent more likely than women not exposed to abortion to have mental health problems, the Otago University study found.

That finding has raised questions about justifying abortions on the basis of mental health.

The study, reported in the British Journal of Psychiatry, found the risk of mental illness was "proportional to the degree of distress" associated with the abortion.

Professor David Fergusson, of the department of Psychological Medicine, and his team studied data from women who had been interviewed six times between the ages of 15 and 30, each time being asked whether they had been pregnant and, if so, what the outcome of that pregnancy had been.

More than 85 per cent of women reported a least one negative emotional reaction, including sorrow, sadness, guilt, regret, grief and disappointment.

A similar number reported at least one positive reaction, including relief, happiness and satisfaction.

The study found that women who reported at least one negative reaction had rates of mental health problems "approximately 1.4 to 1.8 times higher than women not exposed to abortion".

The report concluded: "This evidence raises important questions about the practice of justifying termination of pregnancy on the grounds that this procedure will reduce risks of mental health problems in women having unwanted pregnancy.

"Currently there is no evidence to support the assumptions underlying this practice, and the findings of the present study suggest that abortion may, in fact, increase mental health risks among those women who find seeking and obtaining an abortion a distressing experience."

It said the findings did not support the extremes of either the pro-abortion, or pro-life camps.

They were "not consistent with strong pro life positions that depict unwanted pregnancy terminated by abortion as having devastating consequences for women's mental health".

Nor did they "support strong pro-choice positions that claim unwanted pregnancy terminated by abortion is without mental health risks".

Earlier findings from the same study, when the women were aged up to 25, found more than 40 per cent of those who had an abortion suffered depression afterwards, nearly double the rate of those who had never been pregnant.

Prof Fergusson, carried out the study with John Horwood, and Dr Joseph Boden, at Otago's Christchurch Health and Development Study to document emotional reactions to abortion, and to examine the links between reactions to abortion and mental health outcomes.

Click here for Jon Stewart's send up of Glen Beck, the media guy our good friend Jeetz admires most.

Why are some of the most important critiques of cable news on Comedy Central?

Why does it take the court jester to point out certain people truly are mentally naked?

I imagine he has better protection than a President, right now. He needs it. Gotta be some pissed off soldiers at Fort Hood.

...a good training exercise if the Scott Roeder clone lives.

Put him out in the Texas hill country and pretend he's bin Laden. Let the Army get live training.

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

An irony about the GOP rally yesterday in opposition to socialized health care.

By the time it was over, medics had administered government-run health care to at least five people in the crowd who were stricken as they denounced government-run health care.

***
Yeap, that is just what Hitler (or is that Marx?) would have done: provided healthcare for people at demonstrations opposed to his policies.

Obama is really good, isn't he?

Our good friend Jeetz hasn't taken his meds today.

It will not be pretty if he doesn't.

Too funny.

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

Any recommendations? (smile)

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

Sure does look that way.

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

To ask for any evidence of your last post will only result in another inanity.

Jeetz, my good "I will report your friend" I would like to know what I have written to prompt your last post.

My prayers go out to the murdered soldiers, the wounded and their families. God bless you and keep you.

The more I read, the more this Dr seems to be a lone whack job of the Virginia Tech or other mass killing genre. Since he survived, we will no doubt have a long and extensive trial in which he will be provided an opportunity to explain his despicable actions.

If he is a "terrorist", I hold so much contempt for him I could just vomit. He is a traitor and a back stabbing murderer, gunning down his brother and sister soldiers when they cannot even defend themselves. Death by hanging comes to mind.

If he is a nut, then he needs to be put away forever.

Said Obama today:

"We don't know all the answers yet. And I would caution against jumping to conclusions until we have all the facts," Obama said in a Rose Garden statement...

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

Unlike the right wing and little Bush, Obama is intelligent enough to realize that he made a mistake with Crowley, and has corrected it.

The right wing just keeps on keeping on.

Hey, now that AARP, the AMA and the American Cancer society has endorsed the Health Care Plan, are you going to brand these organizations as Marxist/socialist, too?

My guess is that if they came out against it, we'd be hearing all kinds of verbage from insurance company paid mouthpieces such as Beck, Hannity and Rush declaiming their decision, and how these organizations represent the true feelings of most Americans.

Instead, we just have Jeetz proclaiming that AARP does not really represent its membership.

First of all I quit that organization, because it's a scam. It takes your money and that money is a "vote" for whatever decision they want to make. They sell Hartford Insurance. Not market-friendly insurance prices at all. Why would you promote insurance that can be beat by most of the industry? Must be this reason -- k-i-c-k-b-a-c-k.

In addition, since AARP is a quasi-union for older Americans, why not let membership vote on whether they want AARP to speak for them? (And please, don't insert some national poll here in support of AARP.)

NEA is the same. They're a scam, too. I quit them after one year.

Back on topic. The minute Hasan killed a soldier, he became treasonous. That makes him an Adam Lindh Walker, or whatever TF the guy's name was, and Hasan is now a terrorist.

He's actually lucky he's in the Army and under military jurisdiction. I don't think the Fed can trump that jurisdiction. Otherwise he belongs in GITMO.

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

To paraphrase a member of the resident right-wing brain trust: "Let the wingnuts deal with this crap!"

Which they'll do by spending every watching this video online or on DVD. Or both.

As evidence of the idiocy of our good idiot friend Jeetz, I give this post:

He's actually lucky he's in the Army and under military jurisdiction. I don't think the Fed can trump that jurisdiction. Otherwise he belongs in GITMO.

***
Hasan is a US citizen, Jeetz, my idiot friend. He was born in the USA.

Only an idiot would assert an American has no right to a fair trial.

Thank you for revealing how much you hate America, Jeetz.

'Tough woman' cop hailed Fort Hood hero

From Mallory Simon and Jim Spellman, CNN
November 6, 2009 2:10 p.m. EST

Fort Hood, Texas (CNN) -- The police officer who ended the Fort Hood massacre by shooting the suspect was known as the enforcer on her street, a "tough woman" who patrolled her neighborhood and once stopped burglars at her house.

"If you come in, I'm going to shoot," Kimberly Munley told the would-be intruders last year.

It was Munley who arrived quickly Thursday at the scene of the worst massacre at an Army base in U.S. history, where 13 people were killed. She confronted the alleged gunman, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, and shot him four times. Munley was wounded in the exchange.

That's just like her, friends and family say.

"I just felt more protected knowing she was on my street," neighbor Erin Houston said.

Munley, the mother of a 3-year-old girl, lives on a street where a lot of homes are vacant because so many residents are deployed at war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"We sleep a lot safer knowing she's on the block," said Sgt. William Barbrow, another neighbor.

When Bryan Munley heard that his sister-in-law thwarted the alleged gunman in a shootout, he wasn't surprised.

"There's nothing that stands in her way. It completely makes sense that she did what she did," he said from Downingtown, Pennsylvania. "It was amazing. Without her, there would have been a lot more people killed."

Munley, 34, is being treated for her wounds. Her father, former Carolina Beach, North Carolina, Mayor Dennis Barbour, said his daughter is doing well.

"Her efforts were superb," said Col. Steven Braverman, the base hospital commander.

Lt. Gen. Bob Cone, Fort Hood's commanding general, described Munley as a "trained, active first responder" who acted quickly after she "just happened to encounter the gunman."

"Really a pretty amazing and aggressive performance by this police officer," he said.

Cone said Munley and her partner responded "very quickly" to the scene -- reportedly in about three minutes.

On social networking sites, she was lauded for her actions. One Facebook fan page was called "Sgt. Kimberly Munley: A Real American Hero" and had more than 1,400 members.

"My prayers for a fast recovery as well as my sincere thanks of an outstanding job," one person wrote. One woman added, "U got some brass balls, girl ... u r my hero!!!!"

Authorities say Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, opened fire at a military processing center at Fort Hood on Thursday, killing 13 and wounding 30 others.

Cone was asked on CNN's "American Morning" whether Munley's shots brought down the assailant and stopped him from shooting.

"That's correct," Cone said. "The critical factor here was her quick response to the situation."

Bryan Munley said Munley is married to his brother, Staff Sgt. Matthew Munley. He said Matthew was in Downingtown, outside Philadelphia, visiting his family when the shootings happened. The couple, married since 2006, have a 3-year-old daughter named Jayden.

She is definitely a tough woman.

Bryan Munley said Matthew had recently been transferred to Fort Bragg in North Carolina and has done two tours in Iraq. Kimberly was trying to find a job in North Carolina and was hoping to move there soon, Matthew said.

Matthew was at Fort Bragg on Friday, trying to get a flight to Texas to see his wife.

A page on Twitter lists the name "Kim Munley" of Killeen, Texas, near Ford Hood. It has a photo of a female police officer with the name "Kim Munley" on her uniform.

Its bio blurb has particular resonance in the aftermath of the incident.

"I live a good life....a hard one, but I go to sleep peacefully @ night knowing that I may have made a difference in someone's life."

I have read all the comments to this point. Some are sensitive to the plight of the families of the fallen in Texas, others are not.

Even after seeing how devastating anger, resentment and disagreement can be, we keep up with hate and philosophical schisms that separate us. We let the verbal bullets fly. This is happening on other sites, too.

Why?

We all have opinions and favorite sides of the fence where we stand, but sometimes we forget we ARE all Americans.

Drum, I don't like your snarly way of addressing people and the way you twist words and thoughts, but I respect your right to do that.

KC Law, you seem reasonable, albeit easily angered. I respect your right to your anger and point of view. I would hope you would offer me and others the same respect.

Midtown guy, and other extreme liberals, I don't care for the demeaning and insulting words you have for those of us who are conservative and I cannot respect that. I do respect your right to stand on the far Left just as I expect you to respect my right to stand on the Right.

Expressing an idea, opinion, or point of view is the right of each of us. Disagreeing with all the above is also the right of each of us.
Rapid fire insults are, in my opinion, way out of line and no one has that right.

You never know. The person you are calling foul names today might be the person saving your life, or that of a loved one, in an emergency room tomorrow.

We can agree to disagree. I have never thought that you were anything but polite and respectful.

My apologies for my tone sometimes.

Less rhetoric and more dialogue in this blog, and in general, might help us all to unite and look for compromise and a better way to run our country.

You keep discrediting yourself every time you play liberal scrabble. It makes you look stupid, because you say the most hateful things about Republicans and Glenn Beck who are also Americans. You can call Bush a killer, etc., and he's an American.

Yet you coddle this scum like he is some sort of poor, unfortunate, cold-blooded murderer of American soldiers in their homeland.

Clue this old Drum... He's a Benedict Arnold. Fry him.

I will applaud his death whether his name is Hasan, Roeder, Walker, Arnold or Old Drum, Jr.

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

Jeetz, let's agree on one thing: yo don't think the Constitution applies to people you know are guilty.

I missed that section in the Constition that says people everyone knows are guilty have no right to due process. Can you share with us where that section is?

My opinion on Fort Hood is found in the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and is therefore constitutional. Obama on the other hand wants to restrict my constitutional rights, you included, while making sure the treasonous Hasan gets his.

As for the treasonous Hasan, I'll follow the law, accept due process and hope he gets fried as crispy as bacon. What kind of punishment do you want him to get? Burial at Arlington?

There are at a minimum, five witnesses. Officer Munley and four of her bullets. That's good enough for me. I like her "due process" and her four "witnesses" are an efficient use of my tax dollars.

Do you like Officer Munley's "due process," Old Drum? Why aren't you applauding her? I definitely do!

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

On November 7, 1917, Bolsheviks took over Russia. How has that worked out?

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

I check in here every once in awhile in hopes that an actual discussion might happen. There is an axiom that bad discussion will always drive out good. Dan, Jeetz, Craig et al you have won. There is now zero content on the prime buzz and therefore zero reason to read it. The Star should consider shutting it down because it shows Kansas City to be a region of vacuous know nothings which is not exactly a good recruitment tool for businesses or people to relocate to Kansas City.

Need I explain your post any further? (smile)

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

Midtown resident
Sanity Free Zone
Submitted by Midtown resident on November 7, 2009 - 11:40am.

Jeetz:

I'll take the liberty to offer up a well-known axiom of the English language. Certainly someone who uses the word vacuous would be mistake-free. Midtown Resident probably meant this -- Sanity-free zone.

A "sanity free zone" would be interpreted as a zone to freely use sanity. Whereas a "sanity-free zone" means that sanity is missing.

Midtown Resident:

I check in here every once in awhile in hopes that an actual discussion might happen. There is an axiom that bad discussion will always drive out good.

Jeetz:

An axiom that trumps Midtown resident's is "what is elite isn't always right and what is right isn't always elite." That famous phrase was coined by Jedediah Jeetzwillager upon discovering the new world in 1253 A.D. -- a full 239 years before Columbus.

Midtown resident:

Dan, Jeetz, Craig et al you have won. There is now zero content on the prime buzz and therefore zero reason to read it.

Jeetz:

Spoken like a true victim. Another Jedediah Jeetzwillager axiom -- "You can take the whine out of the victim, but you can't take the victim out the whine."

Midtown Resident:

The Star should consider shutting it down because it shows Kansas City to be a region of vacuous know nothings which is not exactly a good recruitment tool for businesses or people to relocate to Kansas City.

Jeetz:

Aw shucks, I'm blushing. You give me too much credit. I humbly defer. Without my help, KC has done remarkable with TIF giveaways. Give credit where credit is due.

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

I noted that all American citizens have the right to due process when I noted our good "I will report you" friend Jeetz suggested Hasan is already guilty.

Now, our friend writes:

Obama on the other hand wants to restrict my constitutional rights, you included, while making sure the treasonous Hasan gets his.

***
Really, Jeetz. I don't watch Fox News or listen to hate radio, so I have no idea the proposal Obama has made.

I sure would love to what I have said that makes you think I want to restrict your Constitutional Rights to be stupid.

Jeetz, I think you are projecting your ideas on to me. After all, you reported me, just like a good McCarthite would.

It's my duty as a diversity-loving American. No where in any of my posts that you are complaining about have I been incendiary like your use of the unedited N-word.

You must be projecting your anger on me for getting nailed. Tsk, tsk. I noticed ever since I rung you up, you have not used the unedited N-word. Well done, Old Drum. Very well done. Keep that filth off Prime Buzz. You can make your point without it and are better than that.

What you should notice about my posts here is that I deliver a valid, well-thought out opinion on the treasonous, cowardly scum at Fort Hood who mowed down constitutionally-supported American warriors in their homeland.

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

Wow, WTF was that all about?

http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=153583

Buy into this boondoggle or go to jail.

This gets dumber by the minute.

Chuck Grassley just talked about it at an Iowa townhall on C-Span. Pawlenty is coming up in a bit.

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

I think Obama should appoint a new czar. One in charge of counting jobs "saved or created".
My idea is Joe Isuzu.

Our good "I will report you" friend Jeetz wrote:

Obama on the other hand wants to restrict my constitutional rights, you included, while making sure the treasonous Hasan gets his.

***
I asked him what proposal Obama has made that makes him think this is the case.

Read his last post. Shorter version of his response: "I just make that up."

OK, you don't like the requirement that people have to buy health care insurance. Two questions:

1) Should we repeal the requirement that you have to have car insurance if you own a car?

2) What should hospitals do if you come to the emergency room and tell them: I listened to Republican arguments that I shouldn't have to buy health insurance and I don't have any.

Do hospitals turn them out into the streets?

If the hospitals treat such people, who picks up the tab?

Are you guys who are appalled at this requirement going to have tagday sales for the John Galts who refuse to buy health insurance?

Holy friggin' cow is right, Craig!

I remember. You have your insurance, so does that mean you don't give a flying frig for anyone else?

What is your solution to this issue, Craig?

We know Jeetz's solution: Report me and remind me I didn't write the n-word in this post.

You should take Obama's advice. Everyone of your posts here have jumped to a conclusion.

Me? I just commented on a treasonous scumbag who killed a dozen people and wounded more than 30. At a U.S. military base.

And for some reason, Old Drum, you have a problem with my posts which have been spot on.

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

One cannot be too careful with incendiary leftists on Prime Buzz.

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

If they refuse to carry health insurance?

What crime are they guilty of?

Where would I find their crime in the Constitution?

Under treason?

Is that what Pelosi is saying, they are treasonous, unpatriotic Americans if they don't buy health insurance?

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

If this was a law in the mid to late 90's, I would currently be a felon.
I made a choice when I was single and young to not carry health insurance even though it was offered at a reasonable rate by my employer. Should I be in jail Drum?

Obama and Old Drum are FUBAR. Pelosi and Reid and their commie friends in Congress are FUBAR.

Happy anniversary, commies!

Joe Wilson & Doug Hoffman put the "citizen" back in citizen legislator. In 2010, send these kind of people to D.C. and rid it of troughfeeders, constitution-torchers, scumbags, ass-kissers & trained liars

HPV Causes Tonsil Cancer

From www.newsmax.com Nov 8 2009

A once-rare form of tonsil cancer caused by the same human papilloma virus (HPV) that causes cervical cancer in women is spreading rapidly though the United States.

Unlike other oral cancers, which often are caused by tobacco and/or alcohol, the new cancer usually is spread through oral sex but can be transmitted even through a kiss or a shared drinking glass. About 75 percent of its victims are men.

One study found that people who were infected with HPV were 32 times more likely to develop the unusual cancer, which develops in the tonsils or at the base of the tongue. The cancer was nine times more common in men and women who had a total of at least six oral-sex partners.

Oncologist Maura Gillison of the Ohio State University Medical Center was one of the first researchers to recognize a connection between the virus and tonsil cancer. After finding HPV in a substantial number of throat tumors, she saw that the number of cancer cases had been rising steadily starting with people born in 1935.

She realized the rise in numbers was connected with the change in sexual behavior that began in the 1950s and 1960s. People began to have more sexual partners, and a virus that was once rare began to quietly spread.

Gillison believes cases of HPV tonsil cancer are increasing by 5 percent each year, and experts worry that the virus could spread and cause a spike in cancer cases. Gillison believes a solution might be to vaccinate all boys, as well as girls, against the HPV virus.

An FDA advisory committee recently recommended the HPV vaccine Gardasil be approved for young males to prevent genital warts. But some experts disagree, pointing to the numerous side effects, including death, linked to the vaccine, as well as its high cost (three doses at $120 each over a period of six months) for a series of shots. Gardasil was approved in 2006 for girls.

Tonsil cancer isn’t as deadly as other forms of throat cancer because HPV-caused throat cancers respond better to surgery and radiation. Still, rates are rising, and if the trend continues, more oral cancers will be caused by HPV than tobacco or alcohol within 10 years, Gillian said.

Even at today’s rates, the statistics are still surprising: Half as many people get oral cancer each year that is caused by HPV as those who develop cervical cancer.

I'm so tired of moralizing morons making public health decisions based on their sexual hang-ups.

Mind your own f***ing business.

A Dr. on the witness stand;
ATTORNEY: Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?
WITNESS: No.
ATTORNEY: Did you check for blood pressure?
WITNESS: No.
ATTORNEY: Did you check for breathing?
WITNESS: No.
ATTORNEY: So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?
WITNESS: No .
ATTORNEY: How can you be so sure, Doctor?
WITNESS: Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar.
ATTORNEY: I see, but could the patient have still been alive, nevertheless?
WITNESS: Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law.

MyTake

Oh, Jeez...historical victory in House. How 'bout that woodhead, drumbeat and weeiglar guys? Cool...ya think? SMILE.

We require people to have car insurance. I note our good conservative friends have not suggested this requirement be repealed.

I asked our good conservative friends two questions about people without health insurance:

Do hospitals turn them out into the streets?

If the hospitals treat such people, who picks up the tab?

It is instructive that none of them answered the question. We note how they like to be "free" but does that freedom mean that we all pay for their "freedom" from health insurance?

he can have his stupid questions pointed out on multiple posts. So let's take the position of "just like car insurance" of the dumb one. So old supports no coverage for regular check ups. Also after to events the rates people have to pay go up or into a high cost high risk pool.

What a caring person you are, or maybe your question and premise is stupid.

Woody, thank you for revealing that you can't answer my question about someone who declares he has no insurance.

Woody-- drivers insurance is not required of everyone; it is required (or a suitable bond in some states as I recall) for people who drive. It is not required for everyone in the population. that's not the same thing.

status as an idiot. That person is covered under current law at a hospital, who cannot refuse to treat them. What a lying baffoon you are old, just repeat and ignore reality. You make a perfect dem, actually based on the party you qualify for office.

It is entertaining to watch as he trips over himself in every post.

Apparently, Woody is channeling King from Iowa.

That person is covered under current law at a hospital, who cannot refuse to treat them.

***
Very good Woody. Of course, this is right. Who pays for this person without health insurance? Those of us with health insurance and the state and federal government.

So, are you and your ideological partners saying its OK not to have insurance because it will be covered anyway. Where is your sense of responsibility?

I still don't understand the opposition to a requirement that everyone has health insurance. Why should we allow people who will be treated to avoid paying their fair share?

**
Of course, hospitals are a very, very expensive place to take care of normal health care problems. That is a different point to make.

to the lib mindset, it's called freedom of choice.