Sebelius breaks tradition, endorses Kelly Kultala for KCK state Senate seat

She also endorsed Jim Slattery a week or so ago. And he also has a primary opponent.

There is no surprise here. Sebelius sold her soul to the Kansas Abortion Industry years ago. There is no doubt that she would break tradition to keep the abortion dollars that keep Democrats in office in red state Kansas. If she is willing to stomach the Plains Nazis and wine and dine Dr George Josef Mengele Tiller Jr. at the Govenor's Mansion, she would have little compunction breaking tradition in order to uphold her most ardent political calculation, that campaign dollars are worth more than the life of any late term infant in Kansas. Knocking out Gilsrap is just one more step toward a Kansas where every judge, every D.A. and every journalist fully support the killing fields of Kansas. It will be hard for historians to locate Sebelius' legacy, they burn them everyday at Tiller's clinic in Wichita.

So What Else Is New

Jeffery, I liked your comment about the Kansas Abortion Industry. I practiced medicine in Kansas for a while and I was never aware that there was such an industry here. However, since my income is mostly derived from investments, I wanted to check this industry out.

So here is due diligence discovered. In 2005 there were 10,410 abortions provided to women in Kansas. The Planned Parenthood abortion cost estimator lists the cost of a surgical abortion at 4-12 weeks as $500. That comes to a whopping $5.2 million dollars per year. Already this does not look like much of an industry, having so little cash flow. But let's look a little deeper. We don't want to miss out on a hidden opportunity.

With only seven (7) providers in Kansas in 2005, that $5.2 million becomes $62,000 per month income for each of these seven Kansas industrial powerhouses. And out of this comes rent, salaries, insurance, utilities, maintenance, retirement of capital costs, surgical and office supplies, pharmaceuticals, and all the other incidentals associated with running a medical practice. All this out of $62k per month!

Any investors out there want to get in on this industrial boom? It's a great opportunity to get involved in a declining industry that can barely pay it's own overhead.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/sfaa/kansas.html

Elsiegel, your post is too reasonable for Jeffrey and his brethren to understand and will no doubt fly over their whirling heads. But thank you for your post. It added to the rational discussion, if not the hysteria, of this topic.

But Jeffrey isn't interested in facts, discussion of the issues, nor moving anyone towards the pro-life view. Jeffrey has Terryitis: let's send the kids under the wheels of cars going into Tiller's driveway. That's sure to attract thousands of thoughtful people to the cause. And if they're repelled and appalled, they're bloodthirsty monsters feeding the belching smokestacks of the billion-dollar abortion industry with cute, pink babies dressed in little knit outfits.
The Jeffreys of Kansas make sure that abortion will remain safe and legal in Kansas. Thank you, Jeffrey. Remember, the lessons of taught us by conservative Republicans: those wimps Sam Graves and Nancy Kassebaum damn near ruined the Republican Party in Kansas. Thank God for Kris Kobach, and On to Victory!

I have a family member who is a doctor who pays $65,000 for 6 months worth of malpractice insurance coverage. I would imagine a doctor performing abortions would pay even higher premiums.

I won't dispute ElSeigel's numbers, but the cash is coming from somewhere. George Tiller is in business, he is not providing a philanthropic service.

I will not presume to know about his lifestyle, but is doubt he is living in HUD housing.

My accountant father often warned me of the notorious numbers problems that plague Doctors. I think that ElSiegel is in the wrong specialty.
George Tiller has claimed 60,000 abortions performed in Kansas and 10,000 late term abortions, his own words. A late term abortion at Tiller's clinic can run as much as $26,000.00, a standard abortion runs around $2500.00- If we take an average figure of $3000.00 and multiply that by 60,000 we end up with a gross of 180 million dollars, which is not bad for a Doctor disciplined for alcohol and drug abuse. And of course that would explain how Tiller could put 1.2 million into the last election cycle.
I think a gross of 180 million qualifies as an important Kansas industry. You shold do so well in your lifetime Doctor.
Now ElSiegal, as a Doctor, does the fact that women come to Kansas to receive late term abortions at anytime and for any reason specifically because Kansas does not enforce abortion laws bother you in the slightest? What is a woman being spared by an a late term abortion past month six. It certainly isn't the trauma of birth for in the Kansas late term abortion industry, women still go through the birth process, they just give birth to a dead baby. Which do you think is easier to bear, giving birth to a live infant, if the laws were enforced or giving birth to a dead infant when the laws are ignored. Are you really quite so sure that you wish to jump on the Kansas Abortion Industry bandwagon.

Wrong Specialty?

My post was very specific. You are trying to blur it with anecdote. But I am willing to take that on, too.

I used the 4-12 week interval because the majority of abortions fall into that category. Most cost estimates indicate an increase of approximately $100 per week beyond the 12th week. The $500 fee was applicable to low income and indigent women seen at Planned Parenthood. I don't know about Tiller, but looking at his www site he seems to have a high end operation for women who are fairly well healed. That is hardly the situation with planned parenthood which is perennially underfunded.

As for the numbers you put up, well, thats all you did is type some numbers. Where's the link? I gave the link to Guttmacher in my post.

But let's accept your assertion that Tiller has performed 60000 abortions. I see that he's been doing abortions it since 1973, according to The Google. That's a long time - 35 years! So how many is that per year? Like 1700 or so? So even this, about $5 million per year, doesn't seem like all that much given his high end clinic, big staff, and a lot of equipment. I doubt if he personally ends up with 10% of that when all the bills are paid.

If you learned to work with numbers from your accountant father, then enough said. Accountants have their biases and, lacking very much by way scientific discipline, they tend to take anecdote as evidence. Always a dangerous and sometimes costly error. You should realize that most MDs didn't start studying medicine right out of high school like they do over at UMKC. Most of us have undergraduate degrees in things like math, engineering, economics, not to mention physics, chemistry and biology. And we all get quite a bit of statistical analysis since that's how medical science is evaluated.

So, no, I was never in the wrong specialty. You?

I didn't mean to throw unsubstantiated facts at you Doctor, I assumed that you probably followed the issue closely and were somewhat aware of the general debate. To start at the beginning,
you may not be aware that the scandal of Kansas abortion deals with the ethics, morality and legality of late term abortions. No one goes to jail for performing early abortions but you can suffer serious legal consequences for performing late term illegal ablrtions. The reference to Tiller and his support of Sebelius and the Democrats revolves around protection from laws regarding late term abortions. Planned Parenthood has been charged with performing illegal late term abortions.
I notice that any reference to the issue of ethics or morality in your posts has been lacking. I think that since you seem to be starting at square one on this issue that we should first raise the issue of ethics and morality through the legislative testimony of a former Tiller employee:
Article excerpt from an interview with a former employee at a Kansas abortion service provider. Ms. Tivis gave sworn testimony at the Kansas Legislatue regarding the events she describes here. Her legislative testimony was fully in line with what she mentioned in this article.

“From May to November 1988, I worked for an abortionist. He specializes in third trimester killings. I witnessed evidence of the brutal, cold blooded murder of over 600 viable, healthy babies at seven, eight and nine months gestation. A very, very few of these babies, less than 2%, were handicapped…I thought I was pro-choice and I was glad to be working in an abortion clinic.
I thought I was helping provide a noble service to women in crisis….I was instructed to falsify the age of the babies in medical records. I was required to lie to the mothers over the phone, as they scheduled their appointments, and to tell them that they were not ‘too far along’ Then I had to note, in the records that Dr. Tiller’s needle had successfully pierced the walls of the baby’s heart, injecting the poison what brought death…
One day, Dr. Tiller came up the stairs from the basement, where the mothers were in labor. He was carrying a large cardboard box, and ducked into the employees only area of the office so that he wouldn’t have to walk through the waiting room. He passed behind my desk as I sat working on the computer, and he turned the corner to go around a short hall.
He called out for me to come and help him. the box was so big and heavy in his arms that he couldn’t get the key into the lock. So I unlocked the door for him, and , pushing the door open, I saw very clearly the gleaming metal of the crematorium- a full sized crematorium, just like the one’s used in funeral homes.
I went back to my computer. I could hear Dr. Tiller firing up the gas oven. A few minutes later I could smell burning human flesh. Mine was the agony of a participant, however reluctant, in the act of prenatal infanticide.”
Luhra Tivis on her experience in the abortion business Quoted in Celebrate Life Sept/Oct 1994 “Where is the Real Violence?”

Then in recent weeks we have a tape of a Tiller Clinic employee which has surfaced where she speaks of a 35 week old infant born alive during an abortion and then stabbed to death. You can hear the tape and read the transcript 3/4 of the way through the article here:
http://christiannewswire.com/news/834957000.html.

Before we go further and I will be happy to do so regarding the documentation of my financials, I really need to know whether the testimony of MS. Tivis bothers you at all? Does the tape raise any ethical questions? You see if don't have an ethical position then there is really nothing that I can do through numbers to engage you in this debate. It is a debate about morality and ethics.
Let's say that Ms. Tivis and the nurse quoted on the tape were telling the truth, would that bother you Doctor?

Cordially,

Jeffrey

Kudos to you and the information you present. Am serious, great post.

Thank you, Jeffrey, and now, having vented, do you want to get to the part where you persuade? You're back to Bloody Baby Butchers again; say it real fast five times. If ever-more-virulent descriptions of slaughterhouse horrors worked to move people to end abortion, abortion would have ended in this country years ago. Vote as a whole aren't stupid, or vicious; you're not the only right-minded bearer of the truth; people who disagree with you aren't Nazis; George Tiller doesn't own Kathleen Sebelius by virtue of his seven-figure-what the hell, eight-figure-campaign contributions.

He's ticked because I duped him into checking out news from 18 months ago. Ya dipstick.

Damn Nazis!

Dear Widestance,

I totally agree that it is important to persuade but that does not mean that you can overlook the issues. The Tivis testimony at the Legislature took place, it is a fact of the debate. The tape that surfaced is an allegation that has been made. It is a fact that such an allegation has been made. Actually, the Tivis allegations were worse because she also alleged that infants were born alive during the prodedures at the Tiller Clinic and left to die.
These are not pretty subjects. You may have missed it but The Attorney General of Kansas sued both a sitting Judge and a D.A. on behalf of Planned Parenthood. You may say that Sebelius has not been bought but she has been completely consistent in her pay backs to Tiller and Planned Parenthood. As to the Nazis of the Plains, I am using hyperbole, but if you read Ms. Tivis' Legislative testimony, the practices sound very similar to the Nazi medical experiments, right down to the cremation of the bodies. Certainly they share the same view of humanity- but I will accept your advice and tone it down. You see I looked Ms. Tivis in the eye when she made her allegations and to this day I believe her. I think that the evidence also supports her allegations and it angers me that there have been no prosecutions.

Point Taken

A few items. First, my unshakable belief is that abortion itself is neither a moral nor an ethical issue. It has been since before mankind kept records, a social necessity. Having been around when abortions were illegal, but readily available, I have no wish to see that horror repeated. Remember that even the Southern Baptist Convention applauded RVW because back-alley abortions were such a menace to young women.

I believe RVW established reasonable criteria for 1st and 2nd trimester abortions and I believe, as confirmed in Judaic law, that the mother's life and health always supersede concerns for the unborn.

The former Tiller employee doesn't cut it too much with me. First of all, in what capacity did she work for Tiller, what were the circumstances of her leaving, what are her qualifications as a medical or paramedical professional, what is her training in neonatology, neonatal intensive care and the like. Later she mentions she was sitting behind a computer doing her work when Tiller brought through a box full of surgical specimens and took them to an incinerator. The only point to that bit was to allow her to bring in the "smell of burning human flesh" line. It all makes her sound a bit hysterical.

This is testimony regarding her perceptions. No opposing testimony is offered and there was no cross examination. It is very suspect and the only sites you give strongly advocate an aggressive anti-choice agenda. I have already seen a great deal of mendacity among such people. They leave me skeptical.

As to the second case you mention, that's the audio clip, it doesn't purport to be sworn, and it suffers from all of the same problems as the first. If what she alleges is true, and I will concede that a monster in the White House proves the possibility of a monster in this women's clinic, then what occurred was an act of criminal homicide, and I'm happy the local authorities are investigating.

But you have already set yourself up as judge, jury and executioner. You would be disqualified to sit on a jury in this case because you have unfairly prejudged the evidence. You have not left even a millimeter of space for the possibility of a defense. Now how can we have a worthy discussion when everything is already settle in your mind. To me, all I see in what you have presented is a lot of questions in need of answers. But it also seems that Dr Tiller has been providing valuable services to women for years. I won't participate in the destruction of his reputation based on anything short of a fair hearing.

Jeffrey
Unfortunately I get paid to be skeptical. Someone looking you in the eye and exhibiting the Glint of Truth sets off all my b.s. meters. One witness to unimagined horrors raises the bar again, because of the implication that she and only she isn't a moral monster and is brave enough not to keep silent. Moreover, the Christian right has a certain tendency to say whatever will win the day against the forces of darkness; it's all in the good cause.

HOWEVER.
There are certainly two sides to this question, and once again I'll give this a try: convince ONE PERSON this week that life begins at conception, that a zygote is a baby, and that it is a baby in the same sense that a cooing four-month-old is a baby. Be ready to answer all the difficult questions that assertion raises. But be strengthened by the fact that the other side doesn't have a ready answer either as to when it's a baby.
I DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER. But I'm OK with the present situation. You want people to accept a change, it's your job to convince them.

Well Doctor you have studied ethics. Your views are quite refreshing. I like that you value Jewish law as a source of moral truth as do I. I like that you realize that RVW is dealing with first and second trimester abortions.
I don't expect you to be convinced by the quotes I pulled from the former Tiller employees, but I do think that it is vital to understand what the allegations are. Both employees relate accounts regarding third trimester abortions. The allegations regarding the Kansas abortion scandal are that third term abortions are performed in violation of both Kansas law and human decency.
I too agree that I would like to hear the allegations of these women in court with cross examination. Oh would I- getting Tiller into court has been somewhat of a challenge.
I'm glad that you would agree that if either of these women's allegations are true that something monstrous is happening in Kansas. Barring prosecution of Tiller, which has been so long overdue- there are some things that we can know and that can help us determine the truth of the Kansas Abortion Scandal.

First of all, we have the statements of George Tiller himself, Here he is speaking at the National Abortion Federation in 1995, the voice is Tiller's
http://www.dr-tiller.com/images/latekills.mp3
He tells the convention that he has performed 10,000 third trimester abortions of which 800 were for fetal deformaties.
Now let's take a look at Kansas abortion law:
Statute 65-6703.
(a) No person shall perform or induce an abortion when the fetus is viable unless such person is a physician and has a documented referral from another
physician not legally or financially affiliated with the physician performing or inducing the abortion and both physicians determine that:
(1) The abortion is necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant woman; or
(2) a continuation of the pregnancy will cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman.

Now George Tiller, in his own words as of 1995 had 9200 abortions that had to meet the criteria in (1) and (2).
Since no abortion has ever been documented in Kansas which claimed (1)- (you have access to state health records, you can check out this fact) then all of Tiller's abortions had to fall under provision (2)
We know what the allegations are, that late term abortions that do not meet the criteria of (1) or (2). are performed with great regularity in Kansas.

Now Tiller's 9200 abortions raised questions. He was indicted by Attorney General Kline for illegal late term abortions from subpoenaed records.
If we only had that court case, we would know so much more, but Paul Morrison fired the Special Prosecutor who continued Kline's case after he left office and Morrison, who benefited from Tiller's campaign finance largess to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars- Tiller controlling 1.2 million dollars of PAC money which went mostly to Morrison but also to Sebelius.(I will document this if you wish but it is certainly in the public domain.)

Now the evidence of Kline's case might have been forgotten, but those records were in fact examined by Dr. Paul McHugh of Johns Hopkins.
Here is an old bio statement for McHugh, He is retired now. There is now an endowed chair in Psychiatry named after him at Johns Hopkins University Medical School.
His bio, “Paul R. McHugh, M.D. is the University Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. He was the Henry Phipps Professor of Psychiatry, Director of the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, and psychiatrist-in-chief at the Johns Hopkins Hospital from 1975-2001. He is the author of 4 books and more than 150 papers.”
He is a credible expert witness.

McHugh found that none of the records that he examined in the Kline case met the standard of Kansas Law, i.e. category 2
You can hear him interviewed here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg0QYGEa3Sk

Now remember these are late term abortion we are talking about as in the allegations of the Tiller employees. I know that I am moving fast here and you are going to need to research this on your own, for it is quite complex.
But to draw down for the moment, Tiller must justify his 9200 third trimester abortions under Kansas law. Records of those abortions were part of a criminal case and we have public knowlege of the contents of those records as revealed by Dr. McHugh, who is very reliable.
As I have studied this over time I must echo Dr. McHugh's question as to whether any of Tiller's 9200 late term abortions met the standard of Kansas law? And if Dr. McHugh is telling the truth, something monstrous is happening in Kansas.

As I have already mentioned I believe the allegations made by the employee Ms. Tivis. You do have a form of cross examination in Legislative testimony but it is not a court of law. I have found Ms Tivis to be credible.

But apart from a court of law, which is exactly where I hope Dr. Tiller ends up, there are a lot of facts in the Public domain and like the diagnosis of an illness, the accumulation of facts leads one to draw certain conclusions

Am I not correct that in the Torah, a case could be brought to trial on the basis of at least two reliable witnesses? If we count the two Tiller employees, Dr. McHugh and then Tiller as a witness against himself, that would make four- at least a start?

Cordially,

In Search of the Truth

Widestance,
I understand that you are skeptical about Ms. Tivis' testimony at the Kansas Legislature. The fact that she did testify raises the quality of her allegation, but it doesn't prove it. I understand that you have not had the opportunity to assess her credibility. I did and I believe her. Her allegations do not involve technical violations of the law; they involve mass murder.

Tiller, on his current website, which has been modified in light of his indictments, claims more experience with late abortions than "anyone else in the Western Hemisphere, Europe and Australia." If you read my previous post to the our interesting Doctor, Tiller also claimes 10,000 third trimester abortions.

Now how does Tiller get this experience? Is it the mass population of Kansas that produces his clients. Is it the beautiful scenery in Wichita and the cultural attractions of the city? Is it the quality of care at his clinic that draws them in.

Here is a public record that shows us something of the quality of care at the Tiller Clinic. It's an emergency call from the clinic to 911. You can see the emergency procedures of the clinic in action. You can learn about the concerns of the clinic in terms of patient care. Listen to it a few times:
http://www.dr-tiller.com/images/nosirenplease.mp3

The woman who had this emergency at the Tiller clinic died. You can see a copy of her autopsy here: http://justiceforchristin.com/gallery2.htm

This woman wasn't a Zygote. The "present" situation of this woman is that she is dead.

The reason that Tiller has the experience that he has is because he performs late term abortions that are illegal everywhere else. Does that mean that Kansas law is different from the rest of the civilized world? No, we just don't enforce the laws we have. Kansas is the place to come for an abortion at anytime and for any reason.

I believe that the lack of lifesaving emergency procedures at the Tiller clinic stems from the mission of this medical facility. This is a place for killing- not saving life. The quantity of evidence regarding the allegations by the Tiller's employees continues to grow. Proof yet? No, but we are getting closer.

Widestance would you lile to have an emergency medical event at the Tiller clinic? I am not sure that the "present situation" at the Tiller clinic meets standards of care in anyone's book. Thank God, 911 calls are public record; they can tell one a great deal about mission and prioritites.

I'm for a better situation in Kansas!

I am aware that Phil Klein abused his office to pursue Tiller in what appears to be a vendetta. I am aware the Klein so enraged the people of Kansas that he was booted from office after 1 term. I am aware that Klein was foisted upon the people of Johnson County by political hacks, and I am aware of television reports indicating that Klein uses a fraudulent address to claim Johnson County residency in order to keep his job. Phil Klein's public persona does not project a man of integrity, it is rather the persona of a thug.

Tiller telling a convention that he has done 10000 third trimester abortions is in itself not very illuminating. Moreover, while Dr, McHugh may have been capable of perusing medical records, he would never qualify as an expert in court except as to the mental status of the woman. And since medical records are generally lacking in psychological data, absent a basic psychiatric examination in each record, his testimony would be highly suspect. Why weren't those records turner over to a professor of gynecology? Of all the possible specialties, why choose the one least qualified to comment on medical and reproductive questions?

You say that Mrs Tivis, upon whose credibility we disagree, was subjected to a form of cross during her legislative hearing. Not really. I watch far too much cspan3 to believe that. But if you can point me to the hearing transcript I will read it.

I have very little knowledge of Torah. What I cited was a reference to humanity's historical perspective on the relative worth to society of the living over the unborn. As far as jurisprudence is concerned, I am content with the American system when it operates as designed. Politicization of our judicial system (as with Klein) has made that a problem these days, but in my view that problem tends to impact negatively rather than positively on Tiller. And I still find the reliability of these two witnesses very suspect.

I think, Jeffery, that you have forgotten the fundamental tenant of American jurisprudence - the presumption of innocence. You are approaching the Tiller case like a Soviet prosecutor. I think that's fundamentally wrong.

Was it last week? Maybe week before last? A grand jury refused to indict Tiller. Seems pretty relevant to this discussion.

Regarding Jewish law, may I recommend to you a book entitled Feticide and the Birth Cycle in Me'am Lo'ez by Reuben-Lev ben Hershel.

This debate has certainly been enlightening to me as I watch you reduce human life to the same cold calculations made by the managers of Auschwitz and Treblinka. You're right about your specialty. Concentration camp researcher would be far more appropriate for one with your tender sensitivities.

It's strange that I spent much of my academic career studying the Holocaust only to see it re-occur in America.

if you're going to wow us all with your stunning research, perhaps you could at least learn how to spell Mr. Kline's name correctly. I'm not usually picky about spelling errors on here, but yours is clearly a function of ignorance and not just a quick bob boo.

I'd like to thank both Jeffrey and Herbert Spencer for refusing to break frame and act outside their assigned roles. Only you know the truth, everyone except you is blind or a moral coward, or, if a politician, bought and paid for. I'm now fully convinced that life begins at conception and that abortion is murder.

Hey, I tried. I don't know why I bother, but I tried.

If you are against abortion, don't have one. If you are a man, this is a decision you will never have to make. Aren't you glad?

Abortion is legal and safe. Most of us are thankful for that. Your single focus agenda would make it illegal and unsafe. No matter how loudly you scream or how much effort you put into your crusade, abortions will remain a fact of life. You will never be able to change that. Since abortion is a personal decision a woman makes, if you are a woman you can choose not to have one. But you cannot dictate to others.

As for Dr Tiller, he is a businessman engaged in a legal practice. In spite of a 4 year crusade against him while he was AG, Phill Kline was unable to put Tiller out of business or even indict him for any wrongdoing. A grand jury refused to indict Tiller. Even the horrific testimony offered by Tiller's former employee resulted in no criminal charges. (Interesting how that fact has been left out of the lengthy posts here.) Perhaps future investigations and indictments should be directed at the zealots who are interfering with a legal business.

Kline does not suffice. Klein (German: small) if far more fitting. Is there something about literary sarcasm you don't understand?

"It's strange that I spent much of my academic career studying the Holocaust only to see it re-occur in America."

As an "academic," surely you must see the difference between herding Jews onto cattle cars for systematic extermination by the state and women voluntarily receiving abortions.

If not, you haven't done your "research," Herbie. I suggest you toddle down to the local library or book emporium and pick up a few history books.

Wait, you're not a Holocaust denier are you?

The horrors of the Holocaust were not stopped by witty debate and figuring out profit margins for each Jew incinerated in the ovens, it was stopped by confronting those who engaged in such horrendous practices.

Watching this morning's debate is like reading the drivel from some Holocaust denier. Reading Dr. Mengele's posts are absolutely chilling and there is nothing you can say to a monster like that that will convince him.

In Germany the Nazis went out and herded the Jews into the concentration camps. In America the child's "mother" voluntarily delivers her child to the death camp.

What a country.

Growler No. 7, Greased Lightning, is pushing for top five ranking next week.

I think it's possible! GRRRRRRR!!

Stranger things have happened. (Well, maybe not.)

keep smokin' boy. Seem like it's doing you a world of good.

Looks like EL SIEGEL, who was relegated to an also-ran purring kitty, didn't like getting bounced out of the top ten.

Oh yeah, making a late week push back into the Growlers Hall-of-Fame.

If you don't growl, you can't win!

"Submitted by ELSIEGEL on July 11, 2008 - 10:14am.

keep smokin' boy. Seem like it's doing you a world of good."

No basket of facts, no pithy data from Dr. Mengele. At the end of the day, this is what we get from the great mind who computes the cost of dehumanizing our own children? I'm disappointed.

I am going to insist on an answer here.

Are you a woman?

If not, STFU.

Perhaps you should focus your energies on birth control. If you insist that life really begins at conception, then taking the pill or discarding that used condom amounts to murder. So please spread the word that anyone using birth control is murdering babies.

I will be sitting back waiting for your crusade to grow. Surely there are millions of Americans willing to give up birth control and only have sex when they want to have a baby.

A movement awaits you, Herbie!

Now that's a growl, Lib Soc! GRRRRRRRR!

Here's what I guarantee you my fascist friend. Neither you, nor Kapo Siegel will ever have what it takes to silence me.

Pith off!

Jeetzwelfare is 'down'! Jeetzwelfare is 'down'! Please, Jeetzwelfare, don't be 'down'! Smile and laugh again, and sing your songs!
Maybe it will help if we sing your songs as a 'round'!

Let's do the first one:

Oh, MAMIE minded MAMA
Till one day in SINGAPORE
A SAILOR MAN from TURKESTAN
Came knocking at her DOOR!

I'm doing it again-I'm saying let's sing a 'round' and maybe you don't know what this is!

I'll start out singing the first line, and at the end of the first line when I sing, MAMA, you start at the very beginning, while I keep singing. Then when I finish the second line and sing, SINGAPORE, and you finish the first line, singing, MAMA, someone else starts at the first line! Then it all happens again when we each finish our lines and a fourth person starts the song!

But who would the third and fourth persons be? Maybe it could be SHOWER FRIENDS! Oh, I feel so much better now!

Now you bitches are getting funny. See WSR, this is how you deal with a Nazi. You confront them. Trying to convert a monster is a waste of time. You crush them and you denounce them for what they are. Why would I want the likes of Kapo Siegel and the totalitarian creep on my side?

Don't you love it when these right wing creeps who want to control every woman's body turn around and call anyone who doesn't go along with them totalitarians and fascists?

It's a hoot.

These people are totally devoid of insight, incapable of critical reasoning, and totally pedestrian if not frankly adolescent in their discourse.

It's like the comedy channel here.

Did you see this?

A Vice President For Abortion
http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/RobertDNovak/2008/05/26/a_vice_president_for_abortion

He's trying to make me feel bad. Naughty, naughty, Kapo Siegel. What happened to all of your data? Done counting dead babies for the day, Herr Accountant?

Boy. Are you circus folk?

That's why you dropped to No. 2 Growler. And that's ridiculous, because you should be No. 1.

But don't be disappointed. The Growler Gods are on your side!

So keep growling. You know the rules -- it you don't growl, you can't win. (smile)

I'm always so happy when all the work I do on Jeetzwelfare's songs bears "fruit," and it makes Jeetzwelfare stop going 'down,' and start going 'up'!

This makes me work twice as hard on fixing songs so they make Jeetzwelfare happy, and on a Friday that's hot sweaty work! And everybody knows what happens after somebody does hot sweaty work-

SHOWERS WITH MEN!

NOT 'DANCING WITH WOLVES'-'SHOWERS WITH MEN'!

Yes it really is humorous. Somehow we who advocate for upholding and respecting the law of the land are fascists while George 'I talk to God" Bush is not.

So I guess it's okay to shred the constitution and murder people in Iraq as long as he doesn't advocate aborting fetuses?

Wait a minute. Do you suppose there may have been pregnant woman killed in Iraq? What would a pro-lifer say to that? Is war pro-life? Or is it okay to kill those people since they are Muslims?

Anyhow, back to the point. If they are on an anti fascism crusade, it's just a matter of time before they speak out against Bush and Cheney, right?

In autism the current thinking is that the "mirror neuron" system is broken. But in these petty authoritarians, it's almost as if their mirror neuron system is overactive and causes them to take all that crap inside them and project it on whoever they consider to be their adversary. In terms of cognitive processing, this overactive system is in many ways as debilitating as the broken one.

Does not represent all Christians. Bush has made it more difficult for many people to believe anyone that professes a Christian belief. It make people skeptical of Obama's Christian beliefs.

Bush has been an embarrassment to the United Methodist Church.

Top Methodist leader wants Bush - a Methodist - impeached
May 30, 2006.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/themix/36864/?comments=view&cID=128524&pID=128259

Iraq War 'Unjustifiable', says Bush's Church Head by Ed Vulliamy in New York Oct, 2002 (Also Dick Cheney's church)

President George Bush's own Methodist church has launched a scathing attack on his preparations for war against Iraq, saying they are 'without any justification according to the teachings of Christ'.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1020-02.htm

Jim Winkler, head of social policy for United Methodists, added that all attempts at a 'dialogue' between the President and his own church over the war had fallen on deaf ears at the White House.

I'm a Methodist and I can tell you Bush is no Methodist. In fact, he doesn't even attend church. He has said that attending church would be too distracting for other worshipers, what with security, yammer, yammer. Reagan gave the same excuse for not attending. Whatever. Carter not only attended church, but regularly taught Sunday school. The Clintons were church goers as well, and Hillary has been a life-long fervent, attending Methodist.

But I personally don't care if a person attends church or not. Belief is a personal thing with me. But if you publicly present yourself as a heart-filled, born-again, abortion-bashing Christian, then back it up with affiliation. Everything Bush stands for goes against Methodist teaching.

He talk to God, remember?

and she says to vote for Obama.