Obama talks patriotism, the value of dissent before cheering Independence crowd

Listened to the whole speech it was quite good. I hope this puts the issue to rest unfortunately I fear the haters won't be deterred.

Ike
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire

With Voltaire, you say you will defend the right of people to disagree with you.

This aphorism decorates a post saying it's hate speech to criticize Obama, among other things, for saying a flag pin isn't true patriotism, or following a virulently anti-American pastor for 20 years. (I think I've capturing your meaning fairly.)

Which is it? Do you tolerate dissent from Obama civics? Or do you condemn it as speech that shouldn't be spoken or heard?

Isaac's comment made perfect sense to me. Even though he'd defend the rights of "haters" to say what they do, that doesn't mean he thinks their criticisms are valid or wants to hear their familiar refrain one second longer than he has to.

I appreciate a person who can recognize an important distinctions between advocating free speech and agreeing with every one that speaks.

Isaac

Isaac both accepts dissent while condemning comments like yours, realista.

You can choose to hate, but you shouldn't.

What else does realista have but hate? The facts and reality aren't on his side.

One person makes a counter-comment about the hypocrisy of the Voltaire quote and the uptight, Muffy Sebelius-induced, cyber verbal thugs show up to spew their .... what?

Facts and reality? Ease up cyberboys -- share your facts and reality.

Because all I see is some verbal thugs attempting a verbal shake down.

C'mon you cyber hoodlums -- share your facts and reality.

Is it this? Woohoo! The Elvis sighting in Independence today?!

I'll split a gut -- in advance of the humor.

Check out dissent on this thread.

Apparently these boys didn't listen to the speech. Instead they just drooled over the rock star saying, "if only Obama was a woman, dang!"

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire

WitbolsFeugen is a True Patriot for challenging Jackson County Government. This is a validation of his efforts for reform.
BOBZILLA

this would-be emperor is wearing no clothes?

When, since Adolph Hitler, has a man brought so little to a movement, other than oratory skill?

I can think of at least three black men who I'd vote for immediately for President. This man is not one of them.

Draft Colin Powell and I'll vote for him. Obama's resume is so thin as to be ridiculous and for that reason and that reason only, will I vote for McCain. McCain is close to a zero but Obama is even less.

"When, since Adolph Hitler, has a man brought so little to a movement, other than oratory skill?"

2000 and again in 2004 with George W. Bush. Minus the oratorical skills.

Truman led an artilley unit in World War I. He later accomplished good things in Jackson County, the Senate, and the presidency. His foreign policy was based on knowing that America is good, and communism evil. Like Truman, McCain risked his life for America. He endured heroically a captivity that anyone knows was a nightmare. He later accomplished major things in the House and Senate. Like Truman, you have proven patriotism, accomplishment and leadership.

Obama has no patriotism to show except self-flattery about his own thoughts. Guess what Obama thinks? That America is great. Most Americans, too! Imagine, a politician who sets a standard for himself, then meets it. Mirabile dictu, a politician who likes the voters. He has a flag pin now, which he derided as a substitute for "true" patriotism. He followed and lauded an America-bashing fringe preacher for 20 years. He befriended an unrepentant domestic terrorist. He doesn't hang with those guys now, though. Truman: "Friends don't count in fair weather." Smart guy, Truman. Wright has said what he now thinks of Obama's friendship.

Obama's resume is so empty it's almost never mentioned. He makes Huckabee look over-qualified.

I accept that Obama is sincere in seeking what he defines as good. As to patriotism, his record isn't "patriotic" under a standard used by most people. He will say he loves America, did "community organizing," wears a flag pin. But wait. I will say I love America. I recycle paper and wear a flag pin. When do I get MY Hero Medal? Also, it isn't difficult to argue that Obama made, followed, and profited politically from associations that are unpatriotic. They say talk is cheap because it so often follows the immediate self-interest of the speaker. Isn't that right?

I want McCain to win, but I don't hate Obama. I think "Obama" is mostly a public relations concoction by Obama, his handlers, reporters, and the partisan emotionalism of his followers. Isaac and others should handle this thread on the Voltaire standard, which is reason, not ad hominem ("Criticizing Obama is mean. Bye.")

How about Truman, McCain, and Obama? On proven patriotism, Obama can't see their shoe tops, nor can I. How about you? Any artillery captains out there? POWs?

Truman didn't have to drive to Lee's Summit to blast the Klan at its own rally. At any time over 20 years, Obama could have given his version of Truman's talk to Obama's pastor. But he didn't. Do we imagine Truman cultivating the friendship of an anarchist or Red who bragged about conspiring for America's defeat in World War I? Of course not. Truman wasn't found wanting by events that provide moral definition.

Realista --- Obama is more unproven and you made a reasoned argument. Much better than referencing his preacher.

However, you don't deal with any issues like health care, taxes, the war and education, all areas I think Obama has a better position.

Also, just b/c Obama did not serve, and he is young, does not mean you should demean his patriotism. He did work as a community organizer, which a tremendous way to serve your country.

Obama is young like Kennedy or Clinton but it does not mean he can't lead. I want change and Obama has special gifts. His speeches display a deep thinker that I agree with in ways I never have with any politican. I think he has risen fast because of talent and I can't wait to see his Presidency.

We will disagree on most domestic issues, I think, which is fine. Obama is a gifted speaker. When I listen, though, it's Ted Kennedy or John Kerry, just talking in a different face ... just another liberal Democrat, more taxes, etc.

I can't find any new policies. But ditto McCain, with a couple of exceptions (increase US oil and gas production is a new idea and much needed).

Again, I accept Obama as sincere in believing his ideas. His associations with Wright and Ayers are way out of bounds, and raise very important questions about Obama. I got out McCullough, on Truman. There was an early meeting between HST and a Klan guy. Here is how it went...

A Truman friend wanted HST at least to hear what the Klan had to say for itself. Truman agreed to meet and listen (even gave $10 for initial membership, maybe a ploy to get the meeting). The Klan guy gave him the pitch, then asked for the usual private commitment that Truman wouldn't hire Catholics, if elected. Truman tossed him out, never looked back, that was that. My guess is he learned what he suspected all along.

Obama had his get-to-know sessions with Wright, Ayers, Rezko, others. He didn't throw anybody out. He signed them up as friends. You pick -- he was really naive; didn't care what they were all about; or was liking their game. Picking your pals is an important test and a sign of leadership capacity, or its lack. Truman passed many such tests. Obama hasn't, and failed several.

I really like HST but lets not forget his ties to the Pendergast machine. Those people were not exactly on the up and up. No politician is with out a few people that are less then reputable. Mcain has had a few problems with less then desirable people as well. In other words all candidates are a little dirty. Fortunately for the first time in decades I feel like we have two of the least corrupted politicians competing for the to job. Obama has the power to move people ultimately I believe this quality will lead him to the white house.

Ike

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire